Project: 1967 Firebird 326 Rebuild

[meissen]

Claude -- on behalf of all of us on MiFBody, thank you for registering on our site and thank you for helping Fred with some troubleshooting.

[Lucky SOB]

Hi Fred.
Here are some thoughts. From my reading it sounds like, you have power to the starter(car is cranking over)correct me if I am wrong.
1.Make sure the fuel is getting to the carb...............check the fuel pump........
2.Ensure you have spark at the plugs...........whilst cranking over.......pull out number 1 spark lead and ensure it is sparking..........
3.Check your coil
4.Before you pull the starter, check the purple wire on the solenoid for starting voltage from the ignition switch when in START position.
No voltage, no power going to the solenoid to make it work, meaning voltage to have the solenoid engage the pinion gear into the flywheel ring gear and also providing battery power through the solenoid to energize the motor to turn the engine. You can use a meter or a test light while an assistant turns the key.
If you have voltage, and still does not turn, voltage goes very low on the meter or the test light dims, this means the power, current, is not getting to the solenoid. There is a broken wire or a bad connection from the neutral safety switch or even from the ignition switch. The switch may be good, but the wire(s), all are purple and purple with a white stripe, have to be in good repair for a good current path to the solenoid. Make check the firewall connector to make sure it is making good contact between both halves.
If there is no voltage, an open connection in the purple wires. Another check is the ground cable from the engine to battery post. Another place to check is the horn relay buss bar on the radiator support under the voltage regulator by the washer bottle. You will find a red wire and an orange wire, a fusible link, powering the rest of the electrical system and this buss bar and thse two terminals can get a layer of corrosion unseen to the naked eye. Easiest job to do is disconnect the wires and wire brush all involved and/or connect both wires onto the same screw. This event will allow more power, read current, available for the rest of the electrical system and more power to recharge the battery.
Check to see the solenoid is being commanded to work in START position.
If you have power to the starter (red cable from the battery) but no power to the "s" terminal on the solonoid when you turn the key, you need to trace the wire back towards the battery, using a test light or voltmeter at each connection point. Wire is purple and purple with a white tracer, 12ga after the ignition switch, and red 12ga before the switch. Some of the connection points that come to mind are the bulkhead connector (both sides), the Nuetral safety switch NSS, the ignition switch.
It's not uncommon for the last few inches of the wire just before it reaches the starter to become badly corroded/brittle/broken/pinched etc
If power is making it through the NSS but not to the s terminal- somewhere along the route the wire is worn.broken.
Also check all grounds (batt to block, block to subframe and subframe to body).
Fred , its a process of elimination..........................
Also..................I had a similiar problem on a corvette of mine.......................it had similiar problems.......................the culprit was an intermittent fault..................meaning sometimes it started other times it didnt...............this would be the worst kind of fault to have because its difficult to locate for obvious reasons............however at the end of it all- it was the starter motor.............bushes..............they where on its way out.............
If i ever had the problem again- i would remove the starter- and visually check the bushes............bench starting/testing the starter motor-is not enough...........visually ensure theres plenty of meat on the bushes...................
Let me know how you go.

Tons of great info here - I'm anxious to get in front of the car and start investigating it further. Thanks again Claude! We'll dig into it and I'll post up the results later this week.

[Gregs_gsxr]

any luck with this yet Fred ?

[OVRKILL]

any luck with this yet Fred ?

Probably not. He's been makin the world a shinier place and working on a colorless 4th gen.

[Lucky SOB]

Going to take another run at it tomorrow morning. Last chance

[DRYSUMP]

Probably not. He's been makin the world a shinier place and working on a colorless 4th gen.

You'll pay for this

[OVRKILL]

You'll pay for this

Funny though. Damn funny.....

[Lucky SOB]

Progress: Engine turns over with the key, still doesn't fire.

(had the started solenoid wired backwards)

So I'm thinking we might have the distributor in wrong. Going to pick up a timing light and see what that tells us. Thanks for your help Claude, helped us identify the starter wiring was mixed up!

[98blackbeauty]

Fred, engine needs to run to use a timing light. Best way to check if distributer is in time is pull #1 spark plug turn engine over till top of stroke a pencil in spark plug hole will tell you when piston is top dead center. Check where your timing mark is on flywheel, and then where distributor rotor is at. All 3 should be at 1 time. If not distributor 180* out.

[93formulalt1]

Fred, engine needs to run to use a timing light. Best way to check if distributer is in time is pull #1 spark plug turn engine over till top of stroke a pencil in spark plug hole will tell you when piston is top dead center. Check where your timing mark is on flywheel, and then where distributor rotor is at. All 3 should be at 1 time. If not distributor 180* out.

I was actually just about to say the same thing. haha

[mikewoods]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread so I apologize in advance if this was already covered...

Are you running HEI or points? Vacuum advance or not? I had an issue with the vacuum advance fitting between the firewall and the intake manifold so I removed it.

[1FIRE]

Mr Fred. If you think its a timing issue- here are some pointers- that may help. Get piston #1 on TDC on the compression stroke-which is after the intake has closed and before the exhaust opens- remove #1 sparkplug- put your finger in the hole (sounds nasty) and feel the air pressure come out for the compression stroke- then turn by hand to get top dead centre. One way is as follows: disconnect the coil and remove the number 1 spark plug, stick your finger in the spark plug hole and rotate the engine. When
the compression pops your finger out of the hole you are close to top dead center on the compression stroke-this will enable you to get the distributer aligned close enough to start the motor.
To get a closer reading of the true top dead center, then stick a piece of wire into the spark plug hole and touch it to the piston top. Rotate the
engine by hand back and forth and watch the movement of the wire. From this you should be able to tell when the piston is at the top of its stroke.
This is close enough for setting your timing mark. Reinstall #1 spark plug. Ensure all your gaps are correct on all plugs.
#1 is on the right side, first plug, looking in from the front of the car. Remember the distributor turns CCW -Run through the firing order and chase the wires in a CCW direction.

Once you have found TDC on piston #1, remove plug wire #1 & push the lead so it is exposed. With distributor loose, turn key to the "ON' position,
hold plug wire near a metal ground on the engine and turn distributor until you get a good spark. From there it should start. This is called static
timing. Once engine fires you can then set timing properly with a timing gun. Notes:The firing order on all Pontiac motors is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. the #1 cylinder is on the driver's side cylinder bank. The driver's side has the odd number cylinders: 1-3-5-7. The passenger side has the even numbered cylinders: 2-4-6-8. [Number's 7 and 8 are closest to the firewall.firing order.JPGYou can pull the distrib and reinstall with the gear in a new position. If you do it with the #1 piston at TDC with the valves closed then you will know approximately how to align the distributor based on the orientation of the rotor to the #1 terminal on the cap. With the rotor at TDC on #1, put a sharpie mark on the distributor with the cap removed. Helps when pulling the distributor out and reinstalling. The sharpie mark helps you so you don't have to fumble with the cap until you are ready to bolt down the distributor. Hope the information can help. Other members please advise if I have missed something- Fred- and when doing the timing-with the gun- ensure the vacuum advance is disconnected and plugged at idle. Then when complete reconnect. good luck.

[Lucky SOB]

Excellent write-up! Thanks Claude! We'll get to work on it tomorrow night...

[nascarnate326]

If it was a LS/LT it would be running

[c0ncEpT]

If it was a LS it would be running

I fixed that for you.