Red Alert's starting issue...

[meissen]

I'm all out of ideas. I hardly drive the car anymore because I frankly can't trust that it'll start. If I haven't driven the car in a few days, I have to trickle charge the battery over night if I want to drive anywhere the next day. I charged it on Thursday night, drove Red Alert to work on Friday, then drove around a bit on Saturday. As I was leaving one of my errands, the car hesitated to start and I knew it was the symptom I was familiar with. I immediately drove it to O'Reilly, they hooked the tester up and I started the car with no problems and everything tested out OK. I went inside to buy some detail spray, came back out and the battery was dead and wouldn't start. The guy who tested the car came out and gave me a jump and sure enough it started right up. He thought maybe the battery was too small but I have the biggest amp battery they have so it should have no problems starting my car. When I went back outside to leave, sure enough the battery was dead again and I needed to be jumped again just to make it home.

We've replaced the starter 4 times thinking it was the starter that kept getting fried. Now I have a new starter with a heat blanket AND a heat shield around it so I know it's not getting heat soaked by the long tube headers.

The red top optima that I have was bought March 2010, so it's not that old.

Every time I've taken my car to O'Reilly, they test the battery and the alternator and everything comes out OK.

The night I was out on Woodward and needed to be jumped by that puny 305 ( ), the whole way home FreeScan was saying that the PCM was continuously seeing around 12v which is way too low - yet when the guys at O'Reilly hook the tester up to the battery, they don't seem to notice anything wrong with the voltage? Though I can't remember if they ever mentioned it being wrong...

We think something is draining the battery because my battery is typically drained after 2 days. We're not sure what it is that's causing it, though. I bought an ammeter/voltmeter combo from E-bay but when the car is off the ammeter (wired inline with the battery's positive terminal right at the battery) reads 0.00 draw the moment I open the door. This doesn't make sense - if something was draining the battery to the point that it's dead within 2 days, I would think the draw would be large enough to register on the ammeter.

We had the same problem when RA's heart was the V6. This means that it rules out basically any wiring for the battery directly since it's a completely different wiring harness. What it DOES NOT rule out would be anything in the INTERIOR HARNESS. I would think it also rules out the alternator being bad because it's not the same alternator as the v6 had.

Cliff notes:
- Battery drains within a few days while parked
- Battery replaced in March 2010 with new red top optima
- Replaced starter 4 times, current starter has blanket and heat shield
- Voltage via OBD1 port reads LESS THAN 12.5V while running
- Happened while v6 and v8
-- rules out the alternator (two different alternators)
-- rules out wiring to the starter (two different wiring harnesses)
-- rules out wiring to the battery terminals (two different wiring harnesses)
-- does not rule out any electronics under the dash
- Battery and starter (WHILE ON CAR) always test OK when I drive to O'Reilly and have them test it.

[kammi10]

im gonna guess it might have to do with your car pc thing... try unplugging that and see if it helps

[1BADAIR]

get rid of the optima

[ITSSLOW]

1. Optima is junk.
2. I'm gonna agree with Sean and say disconnect the car PC thing.
3. If its still doing it after that start by unplugging fuses. Unplug one fuse and let it sit a day. If it still does it put it back in and unplug the next one. Easy way to at least find out what circuit its in. Kinda a lazy mans way of diagnosing the car but I know you're lazy and dont have a whole lot of free time.

[ezcruisn71]

I had 2 Red Top Optima batteries go bad in 1 year on my 71 Camaro.
I am on my 3rd one now!
I have heard that they take a special type of trickle charger to charge these batteries properly?

This is from the Optima web site: http://www.optimabatteries.com/produ...t/charging.php

OPTIMA RedTop Charging Information

The following charging methods are recommended to insure a long battery life - always use a voltage-regulated charger, with voltage limits set as described below.

RedTop Type: 34 & 34R - 34/78 - 78 - 25 & 35 - 75/25
These batteries are designed for engine starting applications. They are NOT recommended or warranted for use in deep cycle applications.

Recommended charging information:





Alternator:

• 13.3 to 15.0 volts, no amperage limit.

Battery Charger:

• 13.8 to 15.0 volts, 10 amps maximum, 6-12 hours approximate.

Rapid Recharge:

• Maximum voltage 15.6 volts (regulated), no current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp.

Float Charge:

• 13.2 to 13.8 volts, 1 amp maximum current, time indefinite (at lower voltage).

Tech Tip #2 – Charging Your AGM Battery

You've learned that with minor adjustments, you can keep your vehicle running smoothly. A tweak here, a new tip there, and you'll be able to get a little more from your ride.


Here are a few tips for keeping your lead acid battery performing at its peak. There are also a couple of things to keep in mind when maintaining your Absorbent Glass-Mat (AGM) battery, including OPTIMA batteries.

• Newer chargers keeping up with battery technology. Many newer battery chargers, or Smart Chargers, have microprocessors that collect information from the battery and adjust the current and voltage accordingly. Some have different settings for charging wet cell (flooded), gel and AGM batteries.
• Battery performance limiter: sulfation. All lead acid batteries can experience sulfation—the formation of lead sulfate crystals upon discharge. Look for a charger with a de-sulfation mode to help condition your battery and keep it performing at its best.
• Low and slow is best. A low amp charger (1 to 10 amps) is always the best choice for charging any lead acid battery. It's quicker to charge at higher amperage, but it also generates a lot of heat, which reduces the life of a battery, just like the raging heat of summer.
• Alternators are NOT chargers. Don't rely on your alternator to do the work of a charger.

An alternator is meant to maintain a battery, not charge it.

• Batteries eventually die. Batteries are a consumable product. No battery will last forever. The goal is to consistently maintain your battery to get the most life out of it. Charging Considerations for AGM Batteries
• Different chargers. Different capabilities. Although under normal conditions, most 12-volt automatic battery chargers will work on an AGM battery, the battery will only be charged to about 80 percent of its full capacity. Many newer battery chargers have settings specifically for AGM batteries; some even have separate settings for OPTIMA RedTop® and YellowTop® batteries.
• AGM and gel technology differ. Remember that the technology of an AGM battery is not the same as a gel battery, which has its own charging requirements. If your charger offers different modes, select the correct one for your battery. If you use the gel setting to charge an AGM battery it won't fully charge and, over time, it will actually damage your AGM battery.
• No problem charging an AGM at 10.5 volts or greater. Under normal starting conditions, an OPTIMA battery should never experience "at-rest" voltages below 12 volts. Most 12-volt chargers and alternators have no problem recharging an OPTIMA if it has an "at-rest" voltage of 10.5 volts or greater.
• The magic threshold – 10.5 volts. The charging scenario for a deeply discharged AGM battery, one that's dipped below 10.5 volts, is slightly different. Tips for recovering a deeply discharged AGM battery can be found in OPTIMA's tech tip, How to Resuscitate a Deeply Discharged AGM Battery.
• Chargers we like. OPTIMA hasn't tested every battery charger on the market, but there are a few battery chargers/maintainers that we've tried and like. Some of these units have the additional capability of doubling as a battery "maintainer" for stored vehicles. Some come with additional wiring to permanently attach leads from your battery to an accessible location on your vehicle for easier hook up. You can contact OPTIMA Batteries Customer Service at

888-8-OPTIMA (888-867-8462) or via email at info@optimabatteries.com for charger recommendations based on different applications.

[OIF1VET]

1. Optima is junk.
2. I'm gonna agree with Sean and say disconnect the car PC thing.
3. If its still doing it after that start by unplugging fuses. Unplug one fuse and let it sit a day. If it still does it put it back in and unplug the next one. Easy way to at least find out what circuit its in. Kinda a lazy mans way of diagnosing the car but I know you're lazy and dont have a whole lot of free time.

I agree with Sean and Tom and Larry....

[JoeliusZ28]

did it start doing it after any specific modifications? Ive put a screw through a wire before and the car was not happy about that. Toms method would be a good way to diagnose this if that is the case.

[9T8W66]

I agree with Sean Tom and the Larry's.

OPTIMA's are Junk
We sell them at my Dist. but I would never recommend them.

[mcssmostwanted]

brian come pick up my interstate battery from my camaro and we can check to see if it is the optima that way you dont blow $100 on a battery if its not needed

[meissen]

I'm about 90% positive it's not the battery because I was using dad's battery for awhile and still had the same problems. Likewise I'm 90% positive it's not the carPC because I have an inline switch which kills all power that goes to the carPC's power supply and I've tried turning it off when I park the car in the garage and it still happens.

But, I'll give anything a shot. I'm leaning towards the alternator because the fact that the OBD1 port/PCM was saying the voltage was only 12v while driving makes me really suspicious. I went out in the garage and removed my alternator so I can take it to O'Reilly tomorrow and have them do a thorough test on it. I'll swing by your place and borrow your battery, turn the switch for the carPC off if it isn't already, and then see how it works on Friday.

(Plus removing the alternator let me finally use my jack that Angie bought me for my birthday)

alternator 002.JPG
alternator 001.JPG
alternator 003.JPG

[meissen]

Thinking about the carPC more - I'll have to double check that when I get the car back together. I'm wondering if the inline switch is only on the SWITCHED SOURCE or the CONSTANT SOURCE. The more I think about it, the more there might be the possibility that the switch is only on the switched 12v source and that maybe the power supply *IS* getting 12v constant all the time thus draining the battery. But wouldn't the alternator keep the battery charged when the car is running? I understand it'd be draining it while the car is sitting but when the car is driven around town, wouldn't that recharge the battery?

[9T8W66]

If your voltage was reading only 12v while driving then yes it could be the alternator. Also double check the terminal connections because if their not solid connections then the battery will not receive good charge voltage from the alternator. This happened to me after I replaced my Battery earlier this year.

[9T8W66]

Thinking about the carPC more - I'll have to double check that when I get the car back together. I'm wondering if the inline switch is only on the SWITCHED SOURCE or the CONSTANT SOURCE. The more I think about it, the more there might be the possibility that the switch is only on the switched 12v source and that maybe the power supply *IS* getting 12v constant all the time thus draining the battery. But wouldn't the alternator keep the battery charged when the car is running? I understand it'd be draining it while the car is sitting but when the car is driven around town, wouldn't that recharge the battery?

An Alternator is a Maintainer NOT a Charger.
If the battery voltage drops to 10 or 11 volts it will show power to the accessories but probably won't start the car. When the battery is boosted to start the vehicle the alternator will start sending current to the battery but will not supply enough to fully charge the battery (esp. an Optima). Plus add the fact that it won't be run long enough to charge it anyway.

Also on a side note the run of the mill home battery charger will not charge a battery that is below 10 volts. This is a safety feature so idiots don't try to charge 6 volt batteries on a 12 volt system. Our industrial chargers will charge 10 batteries at a time from any voltage. I even have a couple chargers that will do 24 batteries.

[prorac1]

Im going to say its a ground problem. Check your main ground on the battery. Trace it to the block or frame (wherever you have it attached at). Remove, clean, and put back together. Than just start going through all the other grounds. When it wont start, does it by chance, have no interior lights or anything? Completely dead? Im going to say ground..........................yep, yep, yep...................................ground. Eric L

[TB2]

The problem is that RED alternator! Not to say it's specificaly the alternator, but If your showing 12v while it's running, that says it's not charging. Check your power output with a voltmeter right at the back of the alternator. It should be 13.8 volts. Also check your body grounds. Make sure that you have a good engine to body ground strap. Good Luck.