New Camaro/Z28 info

[Orange Terror]

I'm with Joel on part of this. I personally am a Z28 fan, always have been always will be. Just how I am, growing up I knew exactly what a Z28 was specific to but not an SS so much. In a way I find the SS designation a little bit insulting on the camaro. I feel like with it being used on all those other models like the ones Joel listed, that is just a generic top option anymore and I feel like the Camaro is a different enough kind of car, being the only true "pony car" GM has ever had that it deserves something specific to its name. But, I suppose it won't matter to the majority of people, just us few loyal fans.

I like the idea of the top option being a ZL1 or something Camaro specific like it is with the Vette. Yes, it's apples to oranges, the Vette is a supercar, a level above the Camaro in performance and style for sure, and it deserves its own package designations like ZR1, ZO6. But the Camaro is unique too, different than the Vette yet a level above anything else GM offers, doesn't it deserve its own unique package levels too?

I just hope GM gets it right.

[81DaytonaPaceCar]

The only "outcry" seems to be coming from Z28 people.

And, yeah, I have ventured out on those sites, but the people there are so jaded and opinionated, that if you don't become one of the herd and pile on to their Camaro religious beliefs you are immediately branded as outcast.

They're neither objective nor realistic, especially when nothing has really been released.

Just because the herd is loud doesn't mean they're right.

And there is an awful lot of previous data that would indicate differently.

[Orange Terror]

Yeah yeah and I know its probably a dream that will never happen. At the same time I don't anticipate being able to afford a 5th gen during its production run anyway so it really doesn't matter to me. I just like to add my anyway.

[Will]

I would bet they'll come in at the same price as the chargers and mustangs. That's what they'll be competing with, it would make no sense to charge so much more for them.

[JoeliusZ28]

The only "outcry" seems to be coming from Z28 people.

and why wouldnt it? History is history. If i remember correctly the WMCC did a poll of their members on what everyone's dream camaro was, and the 1969 Z28 was the most common answer. It is the purpose-built cars that hold a special place in the eyes of enthusiasts, not the ones that come with every unnecessary luxury. Its just like jeremy clarkson said about the vette: "In many ways the Z06 is a lot like herpes, fun to catch but not something you want to live with every day. If youre going to drive it on the road, youre better off with a normal one." If Z28 came back as the top model with every single bell and whistle... id say they got it wrong.

For those not aware of the history:

1st generation - Z28 outperformed every SS in the first generation with the exception of the L78 SS's in the straight line ONLY... and that engine was low in production. A Z28 would make mincemeat of one in the twisties. Even then it can be argued a drivers race. Every other SS, most being 350s were easily outperformed by the 302.

2nd generation - LT1 Z28 outperforms the SS straight up. same applies with the rarer L78s again. SS was later replaced by the LT (luxury touring) package. Z28 remains top badge until 95.

4th generation - Entry level V8 dropped, but SS badge is later added. SS becomes top simply because it was an unused badge... and "top" was only minor upgrades to the same car.

And, yeah, I have ventured out on those sites, but the people there are so jaded and opinionated, that if you don't become one of the herd and pile on to their Camaro religious beliefs you are immediately branded as outcast.

They're neither objective nor realistic, especially when nothing has really been released.

Just because the herd is loud doesn't mean they're right.

Considering Scott Settlemeire posts there regularly, I pretty much disagree with you on that. This arguement is the only thing SOME of them are [regularly] irrational about.

There is only controversy over this because GMs badging system has been COMPLETELY inconsistent over the years. 10 years ago, everything we call "SS" today had a Z-code. Monte Carlo is a perfect example.

[MP81]

I have a Z28, and I'd rather the SS be the "higher model".

Actually, to keep it like how it was back at the beginning, how about GM puts an LS7 in the Z28, doesn't tell anyone and makes it it's own option, one that costs less than the SS, basically have seats and some gauges (MORE gauges) and goes like hell. SS can be fast, cost more and have more "ammenities" (sp?).

There we go, problem solved.

...or you could just supercharge the Z28 too, say it has two alternators, and one is designed to have belt slippage and squeak...

[81DaytonaPaceCar]

and why wouldnt it? History is history. If i remember correctly the WMCC did a poll of their members on what everyone's dream camaro was, and the 1969 Z28 was the most common answer.

Well, duh, yeah, you pick a pinnacle car, that would be the one many people would vote for.

But in no way, shape or form was it the pinnacle of Camaro perfomance, even for that year...

For those not aware of the history:

1st generation - Z28 outperformed every SS in the first generation with the exception of the L78 SS's in the straight line ONLY... and that engine was low in production. A Z28 would make mincemeat of one in the twisties. Even then it can be argued a drivers race. Every other SS, most being 350s were easily outperformed by the 302.

Not true...at all...the even base 396/325 was faster...

Just for 1967:

Performance:
(Z-28) 302/290bhp: 0-60 in 6.9 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.85 sec @ 101mph.
(SS350) 350/295: 1/4 mile in 15.4 seconds @ 90 mph.
(SS396) 396/325bhp: 0-60 in 6.0 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.5 sec @ 99mph

Read the rest here:

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-1.shtml

2nd generation - LT1 Z28 outperforms the SS straight up. same applies with the rarer L78s again. SS was later replaced by the LT (luxury touring) package. Z28 remains top badge until 95.

Yes, install a Corvette engine in a Z28 and it beat the SS...'course it also had 10-30 more HP minimum. And do we want to discuss the dark days of no Z28 at all in the mid 70s?

4th generation - Entry level V8 dropped, but SS badge is later added. SS becomes top simply because it was an unused badge... and "top" was only minor upgrades to the same car.

Again, not true as the SS always had more at least 15 more horsepower, more standard options, and unique trim panels.

But, regardless, welcome to the 21st century of branding! Expect it to continue!

I'm refusing to herd...outside of a very select few years that can be counted on one hand (specifically when GM is using up old 60s technology 396 blocks in SSs and borrowing the newest Corvette technology for Z28s...and you will have fingers left over...), can a Z28 be shown to outperform an SS.

It...just...ain't...true.

Don't get me wrong...I like your concept of the Z28 being a stripped down road race car...but I just don't see it happening.

The Z28 has far, FAR, more history as always playing 2nd fiddle to the SS...with the exception of cornering from 67-69.

For 3 years, a Z28 turned better than a SS...that was it...and that was 30 years ago.

And by the way...if you're so determined to bring the Z28 back as the ultimate performance Camaro, why are you spending so much time trying to turn yours into a SS and only concentrate on going fast in a straight line?



Well, at least a 1st gen SS...lol...

j/k...I hadda do it......don't hurt me...

[WMCC Gary]

....... If i remember correctly the WMCC did a poll of their members on what everyone's dream camaro was, and the 1969 Z28 was the most common answer. .......

I think your mistaken. We have done Several polls but its usally at Autorama, CSF, etc. but I don't recall doing one of just WMCC Members.

And the question is "What is your favorite Camaro? " And normally the most common answer is simply 1969.

[meissen]

so you what you know isnt a rumor?

Unless you heard it straight from Scott, or anybody else important, that is just as irrelevant as anything anyone else posts here.

Restating it again, apparently you missed this part:

Again, EVERYTHING is rumors right now because even the people that are working at GM don't know what one will be the top model. I can guarantee you they won't even know until a month before, if that. They can switch back and forth all they want until production starts and they start slapping badges on.

Followed immediately by...

That said, I've heard SS will be the top of the line.

Hence, what I said was a rumor just the same as every other rumor in this thread... only mine makes sense

[JoeliusZ28]

Well, duh, yeah, you pick a pinnacle car, that would be the one many people would vote for.

But in no way, shape or form was it the pinnacle of Camaro perfomance, even for that year...



Not true...at all...the even base 396/325 was faster...

Just for 1967:

Performance:
(Z-28) 302/290bhp: 0-60 in 6.9 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.85 sec @ 101mph.
(SS350) 350/295: 1/4 mile in 15.4 seconds @ 90 mph.
(SS396) 396/325bhp: 0-60 in 6.0 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.5 sec @ 99mph

Read the rest here:

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-1.shtml



Yes, install a Corvette engine in a Z28 and it beat the SS...'course it also had 10-30 more HP minimum. And do we want to discuss the dark days of no Z28 at all in the mid 70s?



Again, not true as the SS always had more at least 15 more horsepower, more standard options, and unique trim panels.

But, regardless, welcome to the 21st century of branding! Expect it to continue!

I'm refusing to herd...outside of a very select few years that can be counted on one hand (specifically when GM is using up old 60s technology 396 blocks in SSs and borrowing the newest Corvette technology for Z28s...and you will have fingers left over...), can a Z28 be shown to outperform an SS.

It...just...ain't...true.

Don't get me wrong...I like your concept of the Z28 being a stripped down road race car...but I just don't see it happening.

The Z28 has far, FAR, more history as always playing 2nd fiddle to the SS...with the exception of cornering from 67-69.

For 3 years, a Z28 turned better than a SS...that was it...and that was 30 years ago.

And by the way...if you're so determined to bring the Z28 back as the ultimate performance Camaro, why are you spending so much time trying to turn yours into a SS and only concentrate on going fast in a straight line?



Well, at least a 1st gen SS...lol...

j/k...I hadda do it......don't hurt me...

considering im bleeding all over myself right now, ill jus put it simple. I have 0 faith in that websites data. I also know people that dynoed 69 Zs closer to 400hp, although they may have installed the headers that came in the trunk, i dont remember. i dont see how a lighter 302 that actually made closer to 350hp loses to a 325hp big block unless it wasnt running right The times themselves dont seem right either, why is the Z28 trapping 2 mph faster but running slower? Looks like a driver issue to me.

dark days of the Z28 what?? at least it didnt turn into a type LT. even worse, look what happened to the mustangh. you cant bklame that on a badge ata ll. those were dark days for everyting.

And by the way...if you're so determined to bring the Z28 back as the ultimate performance Camaro, why are you spending so much time trying to turn yours into a SS and only concentrate on going fast in a straight line?

j/k...I hadda do it......don't hurt me...

Im upgrading everything on my car... my ideal car is a do-all. Show & Go, be at the drag strip or an autocross track. Drag strip times are just the priority right now And for the record i sold my drag radials to get money for a cam... which will help in both settings haha

But if you want to know why im making mine look like an SS ill just point out another flaw in the fourth gens. V6s looked the same as Z28s... yea a minor boo-boo there GM.

oh and ill light you on fire jeff ... jk love ya buddy

[81DaytonaPaceCar]

i dont see how a lighter 302 that actually made closer to 350hp loses to a 325hp big block unless it wasnt running right The times themselves dont seem right either, why is the Z28 trapping 2 mph faster but running slower? Looks like a driver issue to me.

I'll wager it had more to do with torque and bias ply tires...the SS was likely spinning through 3 gears...torque gets you out of the hole, and it's well known that the 302 was a high-revving horsepower motor which didn't make much torque...not part of the design...put 'em both on slicks and the SS picks up another second or more...

But if you want to know why im making mine look like an SS ill just point out another flaw in the fourth gens. V6s looked the same as Z28s... yea a minor boo-boo there GM.

oh and ill light you on fire jeff ... jk love ya buddy

Or did they just want to set the SS apart from the others? Higher sticker price, higher margin, less discounts, make 'em look different and they're instantly recognizable for what they are?

Under the above example, the Z28 turns into a sleeper, doesn't it? Isn't that what the Z was originally?

Light me up man...

[MP81]

I'll wager it had more to do with torque and bias ply tires...the SS was likely spinning through 3 gears...torque gets you out of the hole, and it's well known that the 302 was a high-revving horsepower motor which didn't make much torque...not part of the design...put 'em both on slicks and the SS picks up another second or more...

Yeah, a 283 crank doesn't get you much stroke at all...

[81DaytonaPaceCar]

dark days of the Z28 what?? at least it didnt turn into a type LT. even worse, look what happened to the mustangh. you cant bklame that on a badge ata ll. those were dark days for everyting.

Oh, yeah, I forgot this one...there was no Z28s in 75 and 76 (yes, the LT was the best you could get ).

Never built any...if you see somebody claim to have one, walk away.

So, yes, the Z did kind of turn into the LT...for two years.

Or you can just read it here...

http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/camaro75.php

http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/camaro76.php

But...what was Pontiac doing?

Pontiac was still stuffing 455s and 4-speeds into the Trans Ams.

Even a rare HO motor in 75.

T-tops too.

Yeaaaaahhh.

Queen to Knight 3...checkmate.



I gotta go jogging now...gonna have to keep ahead of you at the M&G...

[JoeliusZ28]

I'll wager it had more to do with torque and bias ply tires...the SS was likely spinning through 3 gears...torque gets you out of the hole, and it's well known that the 302 was a high-revving horsepower motor which didn't make much torque...not part of the design...put 'em both on slicks and the SS picks up another second or more...



Or did they just want to set the SS apart from the others? Higher sticker price, higher margin, less discounts, make 'em look different and they're instantly recognizable for what they are?

Under the above example, the Z28 turns into a sleeper, doesn't it? Isn't that what the Z was originally?

Light me up man...

Care to explain to me how torque helps you with traction? Polyglass tires are polyglass tires. My cousins coronet 440 burns his right into 3rd. I would believe that to be true had the SS had the slower time and faster trap, but not vise versa like it is. Trap speed is what proves horsepower, and thats favoring the Z Even with a terrible launch a car still traps roughly the same.

put slicks on the Z and itll run a second or more faster too, hell it has an even 2000 greater RPM range to absorb if you want to launch the **** out of it. My uncles AAR cuda ran mid 12s with just headers and slicks, and it too was originally rated at 290 horsepower.

as far as the Z28 being a sleeper, when was it ever a sleeper besides fourth gens? never. both first and early second gens had front and rear spoilers, and racing racing stripes, along with optional cowl hoods (not sure about the hoods on 2nd). Even after that Z28s always appeared different, theres no need for me to go into detail.

Jeff, im not sure what pontiac has to do with a chevy discussion. Pontiac was simply the only brand that chose to ignore the fuel crisis and whatever else was going on (props to them for that).

No need to jog jeff. The BIC lighter is silent and will catch you off gaurd

[DanO]

Real world > internet rumors