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  • Is Oil Killing our Cars? Important info about Motor oil

    sport cars --and particularly those cars that use engine
    oil in the tranny!!! "Foreign Parts Positively" is located in Washington Oregon--Dave B. --

    Subject: Re: Oil Is Killing Our Cars by: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.


    Oil is Killing our Cars

    By
    Keith Ansell, President
    Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
    www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
    360-882-3596


    Oil is Killing our cars Part I



    About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

    A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.



    This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.



    Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.



    Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.



    To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

    This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.



    Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.



    Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.



    Next question: Now what do we do?



    From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.



    From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).



    From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!



    From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.



    From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.



    Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.



    Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.



    For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.



    If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.



    Oil is Killing our cars Part II



    Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl- dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.



    I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to “dump” Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn’t really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.



    Now for the latest report:



    #1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.



    #2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.



    #3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.



    #4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.



    #5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.



    #6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.



    For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

    Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.



    Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.

    New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

    ---------

    The "diesel oils" have also been affected recently. The API-spec "CI-4" diesel oil (which has a very high level of ZDDP) has been around for a long time (Shell Rotella, Mobil Delvac, etc.). However, the new EPA Tier II Bin 5 diesel emission requirements that go into effect next year require the use of catalytic converters and particulate traps, which are "poisoned" by the high level of ZDDP in the CI-4 diesel oil, so there's a NEW diesel oil, API spec "CJ-4", with a much-reduced level of ZDDP, intended for use with the new low-sulfur diesel fuels in the 2008 Tier II-regulated diesel engines.

    CI-4 diesel oil offers better protection for sliding elements than the new ZDDP-reduced CJ-4 diesel oil; diesel oil used to be diesel oil, but now there are two DIFFERENT diesel oils.

    ---------
    Western Michigan Camaro Club ~ President
    1987 Camaro IROC-Z Pearl White & Black w/ Red Pearl, 355 TPI, A4, 3:42, AirRide,"GOMARO"
    2017 Silverado Double Cab Z71 Pepperdust Metallic, 5.3, A6, 3:42, "SASYZ71"
    2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GT White, 3800
    WMCC Website www.wmcamaro.org

    "A government big enough to give you everything you want,
    is strong enough to take everything you have." — Thomas Jefferson

    "Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who
    are willing to work and give to those who would not."
    Thomas Jefferson


  • #2
    Good information......

    Comment


    • #3
      rotella T FTW ohhand by the way amsoil does have the additive already in it, ive talked to many guys about that stuff, however i plan on using either my diesel oil from the pickem up truck or using strickly rotella T




      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tastyZL1
        ok so i jsut read it and now it scared the hell out of me, i just put in my new cam, and used a comp cam lube when i put it in, i hope ill be ok, damn this sucks
        If its roller you should be fine. Most of this applies to people running flat tappet cams.
        Western Michigan Camaro Club ~ President
        1987 Camaro IROC-Z Pearl White & Black w/ Red Pearl, 355 TPI, A4, 3:42, AirRide,"GOMARO"
        2017 Silverado Double Cab Z71 Pepperdust Metallic, 5.3, A6, 3:42, "SASYZ71"
        2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GT White, 3800
        WMCC Website www.wmcamaro.org

        "A government big enough to give you everything you want,
        is strong enough to take everything you have." — Thomas Jefferson

        "Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who
        are willing to work and give to those who would not."
        Thomas Jefferson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by meissen
          Very long read -- does this apply to us?
          Hell yes.

          This is not a new issue and will not be going away soon.

          Long story short, avoid oils designated at API compliant, but good luck finding one and they won't be cheap.

          The author really only went through the Castrol products, but all the off-road (i.e. racing) oils should still be good (Amsoil should be fine, along with Royal Purple, etc.).

          I need to double check, but I believe that most all of the full sythetics are o.k., as are the major oil additives (i.e. Lucas).

          While the article does specify problems for flat tappet cams, all motors will carry a higher degree of risk because of this. They won't be as bad as flat tappet motors, but the risk is increased.

          Good find, Gary.
          Originally posted by Redd8407
          I WANT NOISE! SPEED! AN ENGINE THAT SHAKES MY INTERNAL ORGANS LIKE THEY GOT PARKINSON'S! I DONT WANT AN ENGINE THAT IS PARTIALLY POWERED BY MY LAPTOP BATTERY!
          Originally posted by Z28ISGR8
          WHY THE F*CK IS THERE A GOAT ON A FERRARI?
          Originally posted by Darren
          I think it is because I take it in and out all the time, the rubber has just stretched out, especially at the bottom where it is really thin. It annoys me more then anything.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by meissen
            So for us non-mechanical people -- what does this mean? Does this mean we need to stop using Mobil 1 synthetic brands? Does this mean we need to use a different weight? Only use Deisel? I don't understand a damned thing this is talking about, or even what a flat tappet thing is.
            Ok in layman's terms, basically anyone running an older style motor Small Block Chevy that is a non roller cam engine Pre-86 runs a flat tappet style cam that because the metal is just sliding against each other instead of rolling over it without this additive you could easily wear out your cam in a hurry. However, you shouldn't have to worry about it B.

            Comment


            • #7
              Funny, I was talking to a friend about this today at lunch, then came back and saw this article.

              Awesome Article, I have been trying to figure out what oil to use in my engine. I had heard about this and I personally hope it is not too late for my car, but I doubt it, I think the engine has about 30 miles on it.

              So time to run out and buy HD 30 Castrol.
              Currently Owned F-Bodies

              1994 Firebird 3.4L V6 SPI, T5, Black with T-Tops and Leather Interior (Daily Driver)
              1985 Trans-Am 383 Stroker Carb., Black with T-Tops (Hobby Car)
              1986 Trans-Am 5.0L TPI, Blue with T-Tops. (Project Car)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by meissen
                So for us non-mechanical people -- what does this mean? Does this mean we need to stop using Mobil 1 synthetic brands? Does this mean we need to use a different weight? Only use Deisel? I don't understand a damned thing this is talking about, or even what a flat tappet thing is.
                If you're running full synthetic, you SHOULD be o.k.

                You don't want to run anything that is API compliant, which is most of the standard 10w30s and 10w40s.
                Originally posted by Redd8407
                I WANT NOISE! SPEED! AN ENGINE THAT SHAKES MY INTERNAL ORGANS LIKE THEY GOT PARKINSON'S! I DONT WANT AN ENGINE THAT IS PARTIALLY POWERED BY MY LAPTOP BATTERY!
                Originally posted by Z28ISGR8
                WHY THE F*CK IS THERE A GOAT ON A FERRARI?
                Originally posted by Darren
                I think it is because I take it in and out all the time, the rubber has just stretched out, especially at the bottom where it is really thin. It annoys me more then anything.

                Comment


                • #9
                  And even more information for those of you without A.D.D...j/k

                  http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ppet_cam_tech/
                  Originally posted by Redd8407
                  I WANT NOISE! SPEED! AN ENGINE THAT SHAKES MY INTERNAL ORGANS LIKE THEY GOT PARKINSON'S! I DONT WANT AN ENGINE THAT IS PARTIALLY POWERED BY MY LAPTOP BATTERY!
                  Originally posted by Z28ISGR8
                  WHY THE F*CK IS THERE A GOAT ON A FERRARI?
                  Originally posted by Darren
                  I think it is because I take it in and out all the time, the rubber has just stretched out, especially at the bottom where it is really thin. It annoys me more then anything.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by meissen
                    No need to get snippy about it. I actually read the whole thing, I just don't know anything about my cam or what it is to know whether this applies to my car or not. Yeesh.
                    Wasn't trying to be. Just thought it would be easier to explain after you read it. but it looks like jeff and OT already did that.



                    I think we should put a copy of this in the Technical & Informative Articles.
                    Western Michigan Camaro Club ~ President
                    1987 Camaro IROC-Z Pearl White & Black w/ Red Pearl, 355 TPI, A4, 3:42, AirRide,"GOMARO"
                    2017 Silverado Double Cab Z71 Pepperdust Metallic, 5.3, A6, 3:42, "SASYZ71"
                    2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GT White, 3800
                    WMCC Website www.wmcamaro.org

                    "A government big enough to give you everything you want,
                    is strong enough to take everything you have." — Thomas Jefferson

                    "Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who
                    are willing to work and give to those who would not."
                    Thomas Jefferson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i wasn;t trying to be snippy OT, believe me i wish iw as a roller but thats just not gonna happen right now




                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kammi10 View Post
                        i wasn;t trying to be snippy OT, believe me i wish iw as a roller but thats just not gonna happen right now
                        Guess everybody's just coming off snippy in this thread today, lol.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah really.
                          - Brian Meissen
                          Owner, MiFBody.com
                          Administrator, LTxTech.com


                          1994 Camaro LT1 Transplant - 357ci LT1, cammed, stalled, and driven.
                          2012 Camaro 2SS/RS - "Zooma"
                          Michigan FBody Meet & Greet Car Show 2020
                          June 6th, 2020 - 8am to 3pm!!!
                          The HUB Stadium, Auburn Hills, MI

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            so is this for tippet cammed cars only? or is it any car that uses any kind of ail? i use mobil 1 synthetic but dont u think they would be compliant or w/e, should i stay away from them?
                            2000 Firebird A4 black hardtop
                            intake/exhaust, fuel/ignition, pcm retune, rims/tires
                            ~Phil

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 00firebird View Post
                              so is this for tippet cammed cars only? or is it any car that uses any kind of ail? i use mobil 1 synthetic but dont u think they would be compliant or w/e, should i stay away from them?
                              You should be o.k. with Mobil 1.

                              But when they used to say that cheap oil is bad oil, they now mean that cheap oil is REALLY bad oil.

                              I've not seen anything for roller cars that's failed, but I gotta figure that if lubrication properties are being decreased, it's a bad thing no matter what type of motor.

                              Keep in mind that this can also apply to snowmobiles, ATVs, boats...
                              Originally posted by Redd8407
                              I WANT NOISE! SPEED! AN ENGINE THAT SHAKES MY INTERNAL ORGANS LIKE THEY GOT PARKINSON'S! I DONT WANT AN ENGINE THAT IS PARTIALLY POWERED BY MY LAPTOP BATTERY!
                              Originally posted by Z28ISGR8
                              WHY THE F*CK IS THERE A GOAT ON A FERRARI?
                              Originally posted by Darren
                              I think it is because I take it in and out all the time, the rubber has just stretched out, especially at the bottom where it is really thin. It annoys me more then anything.

                              Comment

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