Are tuners worth the money?

[Sic96]

So how good are the plug n play tuners like the diablo, superchips, and whatever else. I recently read a story in my CarCraft mag and this guy was running consistent 10's in his new challenger, and despite all the mods, the only tuning he did was with a Diablo handheld tuner. This guy was talking like the diablo is all he's ever needed. Like I said, this challenger had a Kenne Bell twin screw blower and all the other upgrades to go with it so tuning was essential. So are they worth it or am I better off going with someone like pcmsforless? Anyone who has used a handheld please give your honest opinion about them.
Thanks y'all.

[Lucky SOB]

What's done or will be done to your car?

[1BADAIR]

anything ordered in the mail is just a guess

[Sic96]

CAI, longtubes, full exhaust, all the free mods, air pump delete, a/c delete, stock internals. thats pretty much all the stuff that will affect tuning.

[c0ncEpT]

anything ordered in the mail is just a guess

^ this
Don't waste your money on a handheld...

[Curt_irocz]

find someone with hptuners.

[farmington]

You will need a tuner just to shut off the ses light. I used a handheld before I did the headers/cam/intake install and I thought the car ran really good (12.8@108). Once you start swapping parts, its time to see a professional.

[Emulsifide]

find someone with hptuners.

+1

My motto of "Do it right or don't do it at all" applies here.

[OVRKILL]

find someone with hptuners.

+1

My motto of "Do it right or don't do it at all" applies here.

What you're really trying to is "find someone who can tune....."

[Sic96]

so how does the popular tuners like "pmcsforless" work? Do you have to send your ECM to them and they program it specific to the mods you have? I ran a superchip on my 07 Hemi ram and got a hell of a gain in power... but that's a Hemi Ram, not an LT1 Camaro so who knows.

[Nocooler]

Read what 1Badair posted - they just guess. They have a database of tunes and just piece them together. It might be close and it might be a mile off.

FWIW - hptuners can't do LT1 cars.

Call around - I know a lot of places can tun LT cars.

[TrickyTransAm]

I'll put in my $0.02 based on my first hand experience with local low cost tune shops, as well as handhelds and HP tuners.

In general when thinking about doing it yourself, keep these things in mind:
1. You need to dedicate a considerable amount of time reading and doing research before you dive into engine controls management. It's not as black and white as you may think if you've never done it.
2. If you tune incorrectly, you can cause catastrophic engine / trans damage very quickly.
3. You need to have a good quality Wideband sensor installed in the vehicle to get your tune even remotely close ESPECIALLY if you have a lot of upgrades.
4. You want a tuner that is flexible enough to be able to change multiple parameters of the PCM, not just a few common ones.
5. To do it correctly - you need a dynomometer or easy access to a dyno to get your steady state measurements.

Handhelds:
Theyre good for basically stock engines and transmissions. Buy one for a few extra HP and the ability to change basic things (I.E. tire ratios, thermostats, fan on/off settings, speed limiters and a basic performance tweak.
They are a canned generic "Performance tune" to work with thousands of vehicles of a similar make and model - but are still in the "Safe" range of a tune. So they may not give your vehicle 100% optimal performance.

Diablosport handhelds have what appears to be a good support forum as well as E-mail order tunes to support their customers. This is a big plus. You'll need to e-mail back and forth so they can fine tune and tweak.
Hypertech from what I have heard and read, seems to be more of the canned tune for stock-ish vehicles.

HP Tuners STD vs PRO $500 vs $650
You can purchase HP Tuners Standard and route your wideband sensor through your EGR electrical connector into the PCM. It's just a simple mod that will save you $150.
HP Tuners Forum - It's not what it's advertised to be. Yes....there are many good folks on there, but response is slow and sketchy. Don't expect to upload your tune and have someone doctor it up for you. They won't.
There is a Tune repository where you can download other peoples tunes, but it's at your own risk.
Licensing per vehicle. LS based vehicles are 2 credits. The Standard Interface gives you 8 credits - so 4 GM 99 up powered vehicles. Plenty for the average user.
Pro's - do it yourself, anytime on the fly mods, unlimited variables to modify, and a pretty good user interface make it a good choice besides EFI Live. (EFI Live is supposed to be excellent too, but more expensive)
Con's - If you don't know what your doing, it may take you a while to get up to speed and up and running. Cost , Forum information and product information.
Another big one...is the Dyno. Yes - many people have done the steady state on the highway, but it usually requires a second person. One to drive, one to tune. It's not 100%, but it can be done.
The dyno allows you to load the engine at a given speed to dial in your MAF tables, VE tables comparing it to the old engine cal with a level of error.
The percentage of error is what you make your adjustments off of. SO if they're off - your tune will be off a bit.

The Pro interface adds an aux interface onto the controller, but if your only running a wideband into it, IMO - save your money and do the EGR trick.
Add up your costs $500 for the tune interface, $150 for the wideband, and other odds and ends to hook everything up....is it worth doing it yourself?
It all depends on what you are going to do with the car...if you just want a few set mods, and not going to touch it after that....I would say get it tuned by a pro shop and be done.

Mail order Tunes - Probably the only one I could recommend would be Nelson - but there may be others that are good as well.
With a mail order PCM tune - some require you to send the PCM back and forth for adjustments. This can be a big downer especially if its your everyday vehicle.
Usually fairly cheap, but comes with a lot of downtime for PCM transport time, and swapping every time you run it. No data logging capability with most of these.
I recommend Nelson from my personal experience with them. Their Truck E-Fan harness was good quality, fit well, and hasn't given me any trouble. Likewise, they gave me multiple tune options with quick responses through their customer support. Communication is Huge for me - If a company takes days or weeks to respond, move on.

Local Cheap Tunes.
Sorry..but I just didn't have luck with any tunes in the northern part of Michigan. - Not that they are bad people, just didn't get the truck running correctly, and seemed rushed and incomplete.
I know that there are many more in the Detroit and southern MI area that are very reputable. SB Tuning, Livernois, and Baker are all supposedly excellent places to get a tune. (There are probably more, but these are the folks that i've talked to and were willing to help - thank you!)

A cheap tune though..is a cheap tune. Make sure where you take it that they aren't pushy, and check references. If you know of people that aren't happy, talk to them and listen carefully. Learn if it's an issue with the tuner or the vehicle itself.
Buyer Beware - Tune files for your vehicle are $100 available everywhere. If a tuner starts padding the bill on a quote....move on.

The best thing to do, is sit down with a piece of paper and add each option up. Which will get you where you want to go most cost effectively and the quickest up-time.
Whatever you do, read, read, and read more before making your decision.
C

[TrickyTransAm]

I recently read a story in my CarCraft mag and this guy was running consistent 10's in his new challenger, and despite all the mods, the only tuning he did was with a Diablo handheld tuner. This guy was talking like the diablo is all he's ever needed. Like I said, this challenger had a Kenne Bell twin screw blower and all the other upgrades to go with it so tuning was essential.

That definitely was a custom tune done by Diablo. The handheld probably came with the supercharger kit, or was tweaked by Diablo to make sure the engine management was 100%.
Forced Induction engines have even less margin for error in the tune. One accidental lean spot under high boost, and the engine is toast.
Like my post above, it was probably all done via E-mail.
Run the car - data log - send to Diablo. Diablo makes minor adjustments to the tune file and e-mails back to the customer, re-download to the cars PCM - customer re-runs again. Process repeats until tune is optimized and no spark knock occurs under engine load.

[98blackbeauty]

I feel that a pro tune is worth the money, One of our sponsors is SB Tuning, Steve does a great job and knows the LT1 engine, He can street tune or dyno tune a Vectors. Brian and I and many others on here can testify to his expertise and super ability.

[Sic96]

Wow! Excellent write-up trickytransam! Thank you very much. That just made me realize how amature I am when it comes to the tuning aspects,lol. And thanks plumnuts, I'll give SBtuning a shout and see what they think.