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Opinions are like *******s .....
dyno'd back to back?
If you guys cant already tell by my mod list i worked for comp cams in the past and i am sticking with their stuff (including TCI who is owned by comp)
Direct Quote from tony momo from AFR:
Another issue I see constantly is the Internet folklore that a 102 is "too big"
for a 346 CID combo. I wish I had a nickel for every time Ive read that. Bottom
line guys is we arent trying to atomize fuel here....the "too big" BS stems back
from the days of guys using too large a carburetor on their combinations which
effected the signal and metering of fuel in a negative fashion hurting
performance. Your injectors are handling all the fuel delivery and
atomization....the manifold (and TB more precisely) is just a big "air
blade"....the larger and more free flowing it is the more it reduces restriction
in the inlet track. The key to getting the most gains from the swap to a 102 (or
a 90/92 for that matter) is GOOD HEADS! The better the heads the more a stock
manifold wont be able to keep up and the more a well designed aftermarket intake
will benefit you. If you were building even a mild 346 with say our new 210 head
and only a 224/228 cam, the move to a 102 would pick up the power curve
everywhere and make a bunch more power upstairs (25-30 RWHP with one of my
ported units) in spite of the fact we are discussing a small cam stock
displacement build. Its the cylinder heads that determine primarily the types
of gains that are possible with the swap to a better intake.
another tony momo novel:
Guys...
When we are discussing fuel injected
applications.....the size of the plenum and the opening or the TB (size) will
have zero effect on "low end" power.
This is old school thinking stemming
from the very real and often practiced applications where too large a carb might
have been bolted on a particular engine combination.
The problem
stemming from the fact the large carb slowed the airspeed down enough in the
venturi's of the main body to negatively effect the carb atomization and
therefore hurt power, torque, fuel economy, and responsiveness until enough RPM
was generated to allow the carb to become more effective again (guys older than
45 will be nodding their heads up and down right now while reading
this!).
We aren't atomizing fuel here folks....thats handled by the
injectors and the real meat and potatoes of manifold design (runner length,
shape, and taper) hasn't changed much from the 90, 92 or 102.....its very
similar but the 102 does have a superior shaped runner (although the length is
very similar), is slightly taller, and ultimately flows more, especially when
properly ported.
Yes....a FAST 102 can flow more than a 280 CFM head but
thats always the case with a really good intake....ideally you want ALOT of
headroom when selecting a manifold so when you bolt it in front of your heads it
flows more net to the cylinder with the ultimate situation to not hurt the port
any more than placing a radius plate in front of it. Thats pure theory unless we
are discussing extremely optimized straight shot tunnel ram style
manifolds.
I can port a Gen I single plane intake and make it flow 400
CFM.....when you place it in front of a 300 CFM intake port that port still
loses 20 CFM which is very good all thing considered. Take the same intake
unported by me that still flows way more out of the box than the 300 CFM intake
port in question (say the intake flows 360 CFM out of the box) and now you may
only see 265 CFM when placed in front of the head because it hurt the net flow
more.
INTERNET MYTH #1 .....My 102 Fast is too big for my
346
Wrong....its a better designed intake thats going to allow more air
to pass thru the intake ports and be mixed with more precisely atomized fuel
from your injectors.
INTERNET MYTH #2....Its already big....you
dont need to port it (or it might hurt the bottom end).
Also wrong....at
least when ported properly. Once again it simply makes a good piece even better
but I would be the first to admit that on a marginal set of head the gains from
the work would be less as well. The better the heads, the more aggressive the
RPM, displacement, etc. the more that ported 102 is going to pay you in
spades.
The larger the restriction the intake manifold becomes....the
better your results will be when you swap to the better intake.
If your
still questioning anything lets get it handled now and please refer other people
back to the answers when we see the same questions and bad information in other
threads....I wish I had a nickel for the guys convinced their inaccurate
theories are accurate....LOL
The ONLY potential negative to the 102
design...well besides the cost of admission with the rails etc.....is the TB
(airblade) is so large it can create drivability challanges with the tune but
its a much easier deal on a cable operated 102 with an IAC motor. ALso, it tends
to be extremely responsive which I personally like, however some have complained
its too responsive (on/off) and they have to get used to driving it. No big deal
in my book....
Hope this
helps!
-Tony
Originally posted by 1fstss
View Post
nice install! but why FAST? i know my dad removed his because he lost like 20WHP over a LS6 on his 02.... and id go to a vigilante stall 
once you put that purple monster in a car youll never want anything else
once you put that purple monster in a car youll never want anything else If you guys cant already tell by my mod list i worked for comp cams in the past and i am sticking with their stuff (including TCI who is owned by comp)
Originally posted by 1fstss
View Post
Another issue I see constantly is the Internet folklore that a 102 is "too big"
for a 346 CID combo. I wish I had a nickel for every time Ive read that. Bottom
line guys is we arent trying to atomize fuel here....the "too big" BS stems back
from the days of guys using too large a carburetor on their combinations which
effected the signal and metering of fuel in a negative fashion hurting
performance. Your injectors are handling all the fuel delivery and
atomization....the manifold (and TB more precisely) is just a big "air
blade"....the larger and more free flowing it is the more it reduces restriction
in the inlet track. The key to getting the most gains from the swap to a 102 (or
a 90/92 for that matter) is GOOD HEADS! The better the heads the more a stock
manifold wont be able to keep up and the more a well designed aftermarket intake
will benefit you. If you were building even a mild 346 with say our new 210 head
and only a 224/228 cam, the move to a 102 would pick up the power curve
everywhere and make a bunch more power upstairs (25-30 RWHP with one of my
ported units) in spite of the fact we are discussing a small cam stock
displacement build. Its the cylinder heads that determine primarily the types
of gains that are possible with the swap to a better intake.
another tony momo novel:
Guys...
When we are discussing fuel injected
applications.....the size of the plenum and the opening or the TB (size) will
have zero effect on "low end" power.
This is old school thinking stemming
from the very real and often practiced applications where too large a carb might
have been bolted on a particular engine combination.
The problem
stemming from the fact the large carb slowed the airspeed down enough in the
venturi's of the main body to negatively effect the carb atomization and
therefore hurt power, torque, fuel economy, and responsiveness until enough RPM
was generated to allow the carb to become more effective again (guys older than
45 will be nodding their heads up and down right now while reading
this!).
We aren't atomizing fuel here folks....thats handled by the
injectors and the real meat and potatoes of manifold design (runner length,
shape, and taper) hasn't changed much from the 90, 92 or 102.....its very
similar but the 102 does have a superior shaped runner (although the length is
very similar), is slightly taller, and ultimately flows more, especially when
properly ported.
Yes....a FAST 102 can flow more than a 280 CFM head but
thats always the case with a really good intake....ideally you want ALOT of
headroom when selecting a manifold so when you bolt it in front of your heads it
flows more net to the cylinder with the ultimate situation to not hurt the port
any more than placing a radius plate in front of it. Thats pure theory unless we
are discussing extremely optimized straight shot tunnel ram style
manifolds.
I can port a Gen I single plane intake and make it flow 400
CFM.....when you place it in front of a 300 CFM intake port that port still
loses 20 CFM which is very good all thing considered. Take the same intake
unported by me that still flows way more out of the box than the 300 CFM intake
port in question (say the intake flows 360 CFM out of the box) and now you may
only see 265 CFM when placed in front of the head because it hurt the net flow
more.
INTERNET MYTH #1 .....My 102 Fast is too big for my
346
Wrong....its a better designed intake thats going to allow more air
to pass thru the intake ports and be mixed with more precisely atomized fuel
from your injectors.
INTERNET MYTH #2....Its already big....you
dont need to port it (or it might hurt the bottom end).
Also wrong....at
least when ported properly. Once again it simply makes a good piece even better
but I would be the first to admit that on a marginal set of head the gains from
the work would be less as well. The better the heads, the more aggressive the
RPM, displacement, etc. the more that ported 102 is going to pay you in
spades.
The larger the restriction the intake manifold becomes....the
better your results will be when you swap to the better intake.
If your
still questioning anything lets get it handled now and please refer other people
back to the answers when we see the same questions and bad information in other
threads....I wish I had a nickel for the guys convinced their inaccurate
theories are accurate....LOL
The ONLY potential negative to the 102
design...well besides the cost of admission with the rails etc.....is the TB
(airblade) is so large it can create drivability challanges with the tune but
its a much easier deal on a cable operated 102 with an IAC motor. ALso, it tends
to be extremely responsive which I personally like, however some have complained
its too responsive (on/off) and they have to get used to driving it. No big deal
in my book....
Hope this
helps!
-Tony
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