Dual Supercharger Theory and thoughts

[scholtmj]

So Magnuson has been getting some press lately about it's new 1900 series high-helix blower and rightly so. These things make dirty quick boost and are very efficient. Hot Rod did one on an LQ9 and Car Craft made 510 hp on a run-o-the mill 350 carbed motor.

Here is my thought: I have a ProCharger that makes mid and upper hp and boost, so why not add a positive displacement supercharger like the 122 Eaton unit to make up for the ProCharger lacking low rpm boost?

Would I see the Eaton boost off idle then also see boost climb as the ProCharger kicked in?

Or would the ProCharger "short cut" the Eaton out of it's efficiency and not make as much hp as I expect?

Would the Eaton still "positively displace" the ProCharger's compressed air like NA air?

So many questions my engineering mind has, someone go test this now!!!

The Eaton has it's own intercooler as does the Procharger. Add some alky injection and it'd be cold as ice! (willing to sacrifice....Foreigner rocks!)

It'd be an easy install since they run off different belts and the Eaton has a TB and all the applicable sensors.


Both would make for one SERIOUSLY pissed off 305!!

Thoughts?

[DETROITMUSCLE]

I don't think the eaton would allow for enough air flow in the upper rpms, thats why lots of guys go centrifugal to begin with, would it work and run I'm sure of it but I honestly don't think it'd make super power. When your forcing that much air into the engine you need better flowing intake and heads to make any use of it.

[WMCCjames]

Where's DanO when you need him?

[Hugger Z]

I have seen a car with a twin surpercharger set-up. But you had to have the bigger one feeding through the smaller one so you don't starve the engine. But in the same token, there is always a chance to choke one of them too. If you could connect them separately and somehow disconnect their airfeed to the engine so one would work at lower rpm's, then disengages at higher rpm's when the other takes over you might be set. But it just seems like a really complex set-up for not a lot of gain. A properly sized charger should cover most of the rpm range for ya.

Or even a geared/clutch mechanism to spin the charger. I remember reading that W2W was looking into something like that for their Rotrex chargers. The idea was to spin them faster at low rpm's, then the pulley/gear mechanism would gear down at higher rpm's. And that keeps the charger in it's sweet spot throughout the rpm range instead of only at the top of it. Just another idea to consider.

[scholtmj]

A CVT on a supercharger seems more complicated than yanking my SuperRam and installed an Eaton blower.

Complicated? Maybe.

Different? Heck yea! That's what would make this cool.

I really think it would work. The ProCharger still shoves a lot of air into the motor at idle so I wouldn't choke the Eaton of air. Look at my boost guage at idle and off idle, not enough vaccum to run the brakes hence the vaccum pump.

Centifugals compress air and high-helix blowers move air volume. I think the final boost pressure would infact be the sum of the individual blowers.

Think of it this way, the centifugal pressurizes the helix blower, since there is the same volume of air in the helix but more pressurized, you would actually be pumping more air than with the helix alone. The helix blower wouldn't get choked for air because the centifugal is always building more boost. Maybe I'll try the math at work today.

[Hugger Z]

Yeah it might work. But would the Eaton be a choke point for the procharger at higher rpm's? That would be my concern. You are pushing plenty of air to it but can it get through? And are you planning to intercool after the twin boost? You are going to heat the air up with all that compression. Just some points to consider in your evaluation.

Don't get me wrong, I like to be different. Hence part of the reason why I drive an orange car! And I can appreciate the engineering that goes in to something like this. So I say good luck and if this works I want to see it up close if you build it!

[scholtmj]

Yea that's the kicker. How does the Eaton function under positive inlet pressures? I don't know.

The setup would be dual intercooled. I already have a 2-core air-air intercooler from ProCharger and the Eatons have an integral water-air intercooler built in. The ProCharger is the bigger heat culprit since compressing air creates heat but alky injection between the superchargers would take care of that.

The 305 would probably need a stroker crank and some big flow number heads to take advantage of the airflow. How would you pick a cam for this motor! Low lift high duration dual pattern hydraulic roller?

Talk about dare to be different

[DanO]

ha.. just found this.. I'll respond when i get home tonight (late.. lol)

What HP are you looking for?
What is your engine displacement?
Do you have a power/torque curve from your NA engine?

Just an FYI, Magnusson and Kenny dutwieler just build a 725hp engine with an M122... so it definatly can provide enough air.. since Mass airflow = HP

There have been twin supercharged cars in production (mid 90's aston martin with 2 M90's) and also some drag cars with twin M90's

[scholtmj]

ha.. just found this.. I'll respond when i get home tonight (late.. lol)

What HP are you looking for?
What is your engine displacement?
Do you have a power/torque curve from your NA engine?

Just an FYI, Magnusson and Kenny dutwieler just build a 725hp engine with an M122... so it definatly can provide enough air.. since Mass airflow = HP

There have been twin supercharged cars in production (mid 90's aston martin with 2 M90's) and also some drag cars with twin M90's

HP? MORE!!!
Displacement? Go with 334 cubic inches since I need a 4340 crank anyways
Curve? Not one where everything worked correctly, but the motor starts to make power 3400rpm up which is why I want the M122 to drop that down to 2000rpm.

I'd throw on some AFR 195s or maybe even 210s to use the large chamber to drop compression below 9.0:1

[Hugger Z]

Saw this on Woodward last year. And it is fully functional. 8.71 feeding a 6.71 through an intercooler plate. And it made crazy power. The dude drove it around that week and was very open when asked questions on the car. It would seem that the positive inlet pressure would not be a problem. Just definitely need to keep an eye on your IAT's. I remember seeing video of this car but can't find it now.


And another I came across on this vast internet thingy.
http://www.fquick.com/videos/1200_BH..._Corvette/2849

[DanO]

HP? MORE!!!
Displacement? Go with 334 cubic inches since I need a 4340 crank anyways
Curve? Not one where everything worked correctly, but the motor starts to make power 3400rpm up which is why I want the M122 to drop that down to 2000rpm.

I'd throw on some AFR 195s or maybe even 210s to use the large chamber to drop compression below 9.0:1

You dont need less than 9.0 compression ratio...

A stock supercharged cobalt is 9.5:1 running 13lbs

It sounds like you just need a positive displacement supercharger, period. If your looking for a beefed up bottom end torque curve you still get high rpm boost. The internet has a funny way of over exaggerating things.. the car wont fall on its face at 4000rpm.. Its positive displacement!

We just ran 730hp @6000rpm on my coworkers pickup truck with a TVS R1900. (and we had the fuel cutoff set at 6krpm). My favorite is my coworkers GTO with an M112H, Place in 4th gear at 35mph and mash the throttle.. it pulls exactly the same all the way to 120 MPH!!! Makes my LS1 camaro feel like a ford taurus..

I am willing to bet just running an M122 is what your looking for. Get 600+hp that is extremely reliable.. with instant boost response..

[scholtmj]

Correct, I have no doubt a sole M122 would make great power and melt tires on demand time and time again.

But, since I have a ProCharger and will never get my money out of it, why not use it too? It's hot rodding. Finding a different way to make stupid power.

[scholtmj]

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/29/d...er-for-the-h3/
Dual speed supercharger for the H3

[scholtmj]

And here is Wheel to Wheel's implementation of the Antonov gear box

http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-Anton...-Drives-2.aspx

[WMCCjames]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to build that 406 you have and put the procharger on that for stupid power?

As far as heads go....don't think you can use a 2.02 valve on a 305's bore due to the valve wanting to hit the edge of the cylinder.