Gonna Give it a Shot. 3.8L Sudden Drop

[04DetroitLS]

few more notes from me

1. MSD coils are CRAP (for the 3800). put the OEM back on... Im still running OEM coils from an L36, and my build is a bit bigger than yours
2. what kid of plugs? what heat range? What gap
3. Dont the HS rockers come w/ pushrods? I know the YTs do... also, if it were too short, wouldnt he have a more erratic power band from them slopping around? If they were too long he'd prog collapse the lifter like i did..
4. crank cam sensors? is the magnet in the right spot? did you CASE learn it after swapping the TC?
5. what kind of Dbl chain?
6. who did the tune - if its ZZP... thats prob 1/2 your issue

the 11# + x* is for the TTY rocker arm bolts... if you went ARP or reusable ones the tq is 15-25# depending on who's bolts you got

all your rockers are centered right? I know HS and the older YTs had issues w/ being centered.....

id go
PCM/Abuse mode
timing
fuel
trans....

as far as trouble shooting... Werent they data logging while the dyno was going? (IE Powertuner/HPT) if not BUY ONE then repeat... It will atleast give you a starting point to TS... if you cant afford the $300-500 for one get an aeroforce.... does datalogging etc, GREAT GAUGE TO HAVE!

Reason I asked about the BS delete, is if you went w/ a the cam bearing method and it spun for whatever reason the PCM could read the drop in oil press and freak out...

[steddy]

few more notes from me

1. MSD coils are CRAP (for the 3800). put the OEM back on... Im still running OEM coils from an L36, and my build is a bit bigger than yours
2. what kid of plugs? what heat range? What gap
3. Dont the HS rockers come w/ pushrods? I know the YTs do... also, if it were too short, wouldnt he have a more erratic power band from them slopping around? If they were too long he'd prog collapse the lifter like i did..
4. crank cam sensors? is the magnet in the right spot? did you CASE learn it after swapping the TC?
5. what kind of Dbl chain?
6. who did the tune - if its ZZP... thats prob 1/2 your issue

the 11# + x* is for the TTY rocker arm bolts... if you went ARP or reusable ones the tq is 15-25# depending on who's bolts you got

all your rockers are centered right? I know HS and the older YTs had issues w/ being centered.....

id go
PCM/Abuse mode
timing
fuel
trans....

as far as trouble shooting... Werent they data logging while the dyno was going? (IE Powertuner/HPT) if not BUY ONE then repeat... It will atleast give you a starting point to TS... if you cant afford the $300-500 for one get an aeroforce.... does datalogging etc, GREAT GAUGE TO HAVE!

Reason I asked about the BS delete, is if you went w/ a the cam bearing method and it spun for whatever reason the PCM could read the drop in oil press and freak out...

Ok, As far as the block. I tapped and put an allen plug in the oil hole for the BS, so that's just an extra space in the block. I don't remember the exact name for the timing chain, but remember it was an Australian company that made it.

Ok, if memory serves well, I have the AC iridium plugs(p/n 41-101), gapped at .060 Not sure of the heat range. Also has MSD Superconductor wires (brand new as of 5k miles ago).

I used the original crank/cam sensors and a CASE learn was done both before and after the PCM was re-calibrated (I had PCM4less re-calibrate it for fuel consumption over last winter. It was a lot more last year). This year, it took a lot longer to blow out an O2 sensor (which, an any case, after the dyno day, I did kill another one, not sure if it's related or not. Probably is).

PCM4Less did the tune on it. My thing is, though, that while yes, it runs and pretty well at around town driving, I'm leary as to their inability to see the car as it runs, due to their location, which is probably where this problem is lying. While it does run, it's not optimum. I'm hoping to find a shop that may be able to cut the fuel back some more and lean it up to at least take care of that problem. It may just be where everything lies. I didn't (stupid me) think that going 5# bigger on the injectors would cause this much trouble.

[Emulsifide]

Me thinks your "new" fuel pump isn't working right. Do you have any other fuel mods (increased fuel pressure, injectors)?

I NEVER do a pull with any of my cars without proper datalogging in place. You need to log a/f ratio, timing, and injector duty badly to figure this one out.

[steddy]

Me thinks your "new" fuel pump isn't working right. Do you have any other fuel mods (increased fuel pressure, injectors)?

I NEVER do a pull with any of my cars without proper datalogging in place. You need to log a/f ratio, timing, and injector duty badly to figure this one out.

Injectors are 27#, from the stock 22#.

[1BADAIR]

yep. the pcm has to know the injectors. in reality the pcm can only compensate for maybe a few percent.
then at WOT it doesnt really compensate at all. those are pretty much pre programmed values

[steddy]

yep. the pcm has to know the injectors. in reality the pcm can only compensate for maybe a few percent.
then at WOT it doesnt really compensate at all. those are pretty much pre programmed values

I would think, then, that the problem is in that fuel delivery. I should find out a little later if a shop close to me can do something with it. At worst, hopefully Jake's will have a program, or, if I hear from Steve (SB tuning), I'll get this fixed by next weekend. Till then, I'll just drive it cautiously. Hopefully, there's a light at the end of the tunnel that isn't a train, LOL!

[DETROITMUSCLE]

I don't think the injector issue would cause your problems at WOT, if that were the case wouldn't it be doing that the whole time or once it goes so rich does it jump into limp mode?

[steddy]

I don't think the injector issue would cause your problems at WOT, if that were the case wouldn't it be doing that the whole time or once it goes so rich does it jump into limp mode?

That's exactly what I'm thinking, it's going into limp mode at 4800.

[Fox Slaughter]

Doesn't a PCM ignore o2s at WOT? Pretty much doesn't it just dump gas?

[04DetroitLS]

where was the STOCK fuel cut out @ (rpm range/force shift)?
Your TC is a Rollmaster (Austraila) there were issues w/ JP double rollers


41-101s are stock heat range plugs.... If you have an extra $15 lying around you could try Autolite COPPER 606 (stock heat range) or 104 (1 colder) gapped at 50.. but at this point Im really thinking its engine management/ spark system /POSSIBLY fuel delivery, but if that were the case, wouldnt the graph be a bit more erratic? it's making power until ~5k...

this guy know his shit w/ the 3800s, but he's around columbus
http://dynotunemotorsports.com/
Intense has their dynotunes on sale right now for $300, they use Brian (link above)

or there's ZZP in Grand Rapids, not big fans of them BUT.....not a big fan of them / dont really like sending people to them...

w/o datalogging, its going to be ahrd to see exactly what is happening....

[steddy]

where was the STOCK fuel cut out @ (rpm range/force shift)?
Your TC is a Rollmaster (Austraila) there were issues w/ JP double rollers


41-101s are stock heat range plugs.... If you have an extra $15 lying around you could try Autolite COPPER 606 (stock heat range) or 104 (1 colder) gapped at 50.. but at this point Im really thinking its engine management/ spark system /POSSIBLY fuel delivery, but if that were the case, wouldnt the graph be a bit more erratic? it's making power until ~5k...

this guy know his shit w/ the 3800s, but he's around columbus
http://dynotunemotorsports.com/
Intense has their dynotunes on sale right now for $300, they use Brian (link above)

or there's ZZP in Grand Rapids, not big fans of them BUT.....not a big fan of them / dont really like sending people to them...

w/o datalogging, its going to be ahrd to see exactly what is happening....

Man, I gotta tell ya. You're good. Real good to figure it was a rollmaster. There were so many names I went through during gathering the parts and making sure what would be the best fit (so I thought), but yes, the TC is a rollmaster. I seem to remember someone on the firebird v6 forum saying something negative about the JP, so I skipped it in favor of the Aussy, being that this is originally an Australian engine. Anyway, I'm taking the car to a dyno tuner in Wixom on the 16th, to see if they may be able to pull a crap-load of fuel out of the delivery, seeing as how I just blew another O2, same bank (#1) with less than 50 miles on in. The shop I had it done at last year warranteed it last week (when it was done), but I'm sure there's gonna be a fight about it this time. I swear, all summer, no SES light and now, I'm changing the O2s faster than the gas.

[04DetroitLS]

chase the 02 wiring and make sure it didnt melt and isnt shorting out... youve got to dump ALOT of fuel to kill them , I ran 60# injectors set @ 36#ers (and then somewhere inbetween) for almost a week, and then drove the car to columbus to get tuned running pig rich and mine still work...

Mine are a bit lazy though, prob from running leaded race gas now and then
ALSO what KIND of o2 are you using? The Wbodies (and i assume F) are extremely picky when it comes to o2s

I cant remember if it likes or dislikes the Densos but the bosch, it hates! go w/ Delcos if you can....

[steddy]

Yes, It has a Standard *(correction)* there right now. I'm gonna see if I can pick up a delco.

UPDATE Just ordered a Delco. Hopefully, it'll be here by Friday.

[04DetroitLS]

updates?

[steddy]

*update*

Ok, just got back from Walsh Motorsports and I have to say what a HHHHUUUUUUGGGGE difference!! Turns out that the car wasn't running rich at all. In fact, it was running lean and only got leaner as the Rs went up, which is why it was killing O2s also. It was also advanced like 25 Degrees. They brought that down, richened the mixture, aligned the tables and, get this, I gained almost 20 hp and 10 lbs of torque! The car is running like a dream. They said it was a miracle the engine didn't have a meltdown the way it was running, although, to say something good about a mail tune, without that, she never would've ran. Bad part is that they didn't have the car there telling them what was wrong, so there was only so much they could do.

Walsh's hooked me right up. They're out in Wixom and I have to say, if you got problems on this side of town, this is the place to go! They dynoed it a total of 5 times and each time, it just kept gettng better till it was just about perfect. Check the sheet.